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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:59 pm 
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brian livesey wrote:
As I understand it, when physicists refer to "time", "curved space" and "multi-dimensions", etc, they mean them as mental concepts for modelling purposes, whereas the lay-person is apt to think of these things as actually existing.
I remember seeing an Open University programme on TV showing the famous slit experiment with light. The physicist doing the demonstration said that, on the basis of the experiment, light can be regard as either particles or waves. He did add, however, that light is neither particles nor waves, only that it behaves as such in given experiments.


On the first point time does exist.
To exist means to pass through time.
The two cannot be seperated.

The second point is extremely good and should be noted.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:58 am 
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Hi all,
If you were to peg it tomorrow (and I hope no one does), for you (barring some phenomonen we dont know about), the Universe no longer exists yet people who are still here see your expired body. So the old saying 'one rule for one person and one rule for another' comes to mind!
This is part of relativity in a way because the Universe is only relative to you if you are alive. A lot of the time I think people forget about how important spacetime is to the overall picture. To get a picture of time in your head and its relationship to the 3d space that surrounds us is extremely difficult. As matter travels forward in spacetime into the future, there isn't a direction you can imagine because the 4th dimension of time is directionless but rather a infinate amount of possibilities. For example you are sat there at your computer screen, you look at your hand and wave it in front of you. That action alone has changed how the matter in your body has moved forward in spacetime. The action has also changed the history of that matter and the direction in which the light bounced off it. You yourself can change how matter moves forward in spacetime by your own actions alone and this is true for every atom in the Universe.
The future is therefore a infinate amount of possibilities and cannot have any particular direction or predictable model. The only model we observe is the past. What is that observable past? ......light.
So when Ruud says that light is our past is he correct?.....yes he is 100%
Can light travel with matter through spacetime or into the future?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:29 pm 
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Hi again,
I think that there is proof of Ruud's theory and we see it everyday.
What does the Earth try to do to you personally everyday? Imagine if the Earth surface was a crust of rock 1 KM thick and inside was a vacuum leading to a condensed central core similar to a black hole. If you smashed your way through the rock and got into the vacuum area what would be the result? There would be no air to stop you from reaching terminal velocity like in the atmosphere! You would continue to accelerate towards the centre till you reached light speed.
The Earth is moving forward through spacetime and if you get in its way it will pull you into its centre accelerating you to a speed equal to it's own velocity through spacetime.
Gravity is simply the Earth moving in a direction you cannot see but you can definately feel it.
The earth everyday tries to leave you behind in time like it does with photons. If it did manage to leave you behind in time your speed would be zero like the photon but that would never be because you become part of the mass that rips its way into the future.


Last edited by Quasar on Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 3:31 pm 
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I'm certainly not promoting the Strong Anthropic Principle, as George might have hinted at.
Things can exist beyond our senses, but we can't know what they are until they fall within our sense perceptions. To say otherwise would be pure idealism, i.e. that reality is a product of the mind. We know that reality is external to us through the facts of evolution.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:03 pm 
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Quasar wrote:
Hi again,
I think that there is proof of Ruud's theory and we see it everyday.
What does the Earth try to do to you personally everyday? Imagine if the Earth surface was a crust of rock 1 KM thick and inside was a vacuum leading to a condensed central core similar to a black hole. If you smashed your way through the rock and got into the vacuum area what would be the result? There would be no air to stop you from reaching terminal velocity like in the atmosphere! You would continue to accelerate towards the centre till you reached light speed.
The Earth is moving forward through spacetime and if you get in its way it will pull you into its centre accelerating you to a speed equal to it's own velocity through spacetime.
Gravity is simply the Earth moving in a direction you cannot see but you can definately feel it.
The earth everyday tries to leave you behind in time like it does with photons. If it did manage to leave you behind in time your speed would be zero like the photon but that would never be because you become part of the mass that rips its way into the future.

Does this mean that the Voyager spaceraft, New Horizons, etc are all travelling faster than light? And as there's no atmosphere in space to slow objects down, are we orbiting the Sun at a speed greater than c?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:16 pm 
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RL Astro wrote:
Quasar wrote:
Hi again,
I think that there is proof of Ruud's theory and we see it everyday.
What does the Earth try to do to you personally everyday? Imagine if the Earth surface was a crust of rock 1 KM thick and inside was a vacuum leading to a condensed central core similar to a black hole. If you smashed your way through the rock and got into the vacuum area what would be the result? There would be no air to stop you from reaching terminal velocity like in the atmosphere! You would continue to accelerate towards the centre till you reached light speed.
The Earth is moving forward through spacetime and if you get in its way it will pull you into its centre accelerating you to a speed equal to it's own velocity through spacetime.
Gravity is simply the Earth moving in a direction you cannot see but you can definately feel it.
The earth everyday tries to leave you behind in time like it does with photons. If it did manage to leave you behind in time your speed would be zero like the photon but that would never be because you become part of the mass that rips its way into the future.

Does this mean that the Voyager spaceraft, New Horizons, etc are all travelling faster than light? And as there's no atmosphere in space to slow objects down, are we orbiting the Sun at a speed greater than c?

NO!!! They are travelling through spacetime at a velocity not through 3d space. The3d space you see is the past. Imagine jumping up and down on a trampoline, the energy within your muscles and the spring of the trampoline allow you to escape the gravity for a second or two. Imagine that at every point you are in the air and away from the Earth is a place in time. The Earth is moving through time with more energy than you and overtakes your old position. You are stationary at even given height you are in the air. The Earth is the one that comes to meet you because it moved into the future at a greater velocity than you. Simple as that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:22 pm 
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Quasar wrote:
The earth everyday tries to leave you behind in time like it does with photons.

Sorry, Quasar, I didn't follow that at all and it certainly doesn't qualify as proof of anything. Why would the Earth "try to leave us behind"? The Earth is matter and we are also matter. Why is Earth matter different from people matter?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:46 pm 
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Quasar wrote:
The Earth is moving through time with more energy than you and overtakes your old position. You are stationary at even given height you are in the air. The Earth is the one that comes to meet you because it moved into the future at a greater velocity than you. Simple as that.

We're moving through spacetime at the same speed as the Earth. We are on it, after all. When you run and jump, the effect of your movement relative to the Earth is the same as the effect of your movement through spacetime when you're 'stationary' and jump, because the Earth is propelling us at such a speed.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:08 pm 
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RL Astro wrote:
Quasar wrote:
The Earth is moving through time with more energy than you and overtakes your old position. You are stationary at even given height you are in the air. The Earth is the one that comes to meet you because it moved into the future at a greater velocity than you. Simple as that.

We're moving through spacetime at the same speed as the Earth. We are on it, after all. When you run and jump, the effect of your movement relative to the Earth is the same as the effect of your movement through spacetime when you're 'stationary' and jump, because the Earth is propelling us at such a speed.

Let me put it a different way. The Earth is being sucked into a dimension you cannot see - the future. If you stand on it you'll go for a ride with it.
If you jump in the air, you are trying to beat the Earth into the future, it will catch you and if you are daft enough to get in its way from a distance it will smash you to pieces while it's on it's way. E=M the bigger the mass the more it will smash you to bits if you stand in the way. If you want to get in the way of Jupiter while it smashes its way into the future, it's going to hurt but be quicker. This energy is just not purely 'rest energy' its rest energy moving into somewhere we dont really understand.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:24 pm 
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Quasar wrote:
Let me put it a different way. The Earth is being sucked into a dimension you cannot see - the future. If you stand on it you'll go for a ride with it.
If you jump in the air, you are trying to beat the Earth into the future,

That might not be your intended purpose. Might just be having a bit of fun on a trampoline :)

Quasar wrote:
it will catch you and if you are daft enough to get in its way from a distance it will smash you to pieces while it's on it's way. E=M the bigger the mass the more it will smash you to bits if you stand in the way. If you want to get in the way of Jupiter while it smashes its way into the future, it's going to hurt but be quicker. This energy is just not purely 'rest energy' its rest energy moving into somewhere we dont really understand.

I don't really follow this. Astronauts leave the Earth and if they want to return they have to fly back at it. They don't get smashed to pieces. They just come back to it.
We're travelling through space at the same rate as the Earth. As Joe said, why is Earth matter any different to human matter? It's all atoms isn't it? (Ok, forces, ions, energy, etc... but nevermind that)


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:02 pm 
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RL Astro wrote:
Quasar wrote:
Let me put it a different way. The Earth is being sucked into a dimension you cannot see - the future. If you stand on it you'll go for a ride with it.
If you jump in the air, you are trying to beat the Earth into the future,

That might not be your intended purpose. Might just be having a bit of fun on a trampoline :)

Quasar wrote:
it will catch you and if you are daft enough to get in its way from a distance it will smash you to pieces while it's on it's way. E=M the bigger the mass the more it will smash you to bits if you stand in the way. If you want to get in the way of Jupiter while it smashes its way into the future, it's going to hurt but be quicker. This energy is just not purely 'rest energy' its rest energy moving into somewhere we dont really understand.

I don't really follow this. Astronauts leave the Earth and if they want to return they have to fly back at it. They don't get smashed to pieces. They just come back to it.
We're travelling through space at the same rate as the Earth. As Joe said, why is Earth matter any different to human matter? It's all atoms isn't it? (Ok, forces, ions, energy, etc... but nevermind that)

If the Earth had no atmosphere, you wouldn't fall back at a nice 200KM\h.
If there were no atmosphere and it was part of the space vacuum, you wouldn't be coming home at a nice speed? To land you would have to back in with a Saturn rocket on full blast, no parachutes allowed!! :lol:
It is only this planets soft atmosphere that cusions the fall.
If you remain in orbit long enough, the Earth will eventually pull you back in, if there was no atmosphere the process would be quicker. The further away from the Earth you get, the further you get away from its ability to bend and warp spacetime around it. You then get into dead 3d space and you and your space rocket will have to make your own way into the future. But then again if you enter the area where Earth bashes its way into the future the Earth will try to beat you too it and you will become part of it.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:22 pm 
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Quasar wrote:
The further away from the Earth you get, the further you get away from its ability to bend and warp spacetime around it.

So we have two types of gravity?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:25 pm 
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See what you're saying about the Earths atmosphere but I still fail to see it 'beating you into the future'. If an astronaut left Earth and managed to stop moving relative to everything else, would time not pass for him? Would he not be moving into the future too?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 6:39 pm 
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joe wrote:
Quasar wrote:
The further away from the Earth you get, the further you get away from its ability to bend and warp spacetime around it.

So we have two types of gravity?

You mean local, solar system and Galaxtican? I just considered that as a mass sits there in space with huge rest energy. This rest energy forces a way into the future that is beyond our mind. If you venture too near then you will become part of that masses future as if you are in the way of all possibilities. If you get away from that mass then you are still going to be subject to a future whether it is guided by your own mass or the mass of the Galaxy of which you are part of.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:01 pm 
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Quasar wrote:
joe wrote:
So we have two types of gravity?

You mean local, solar system and Galaxtican?

No, I mean Einstein's conventional, and largely accepted, warped spacetime model that you employed just now and the alternative "moving forward into the future" kind of gravity that you are trying to get us to accept.

you wrote:
Gravity is simply the Earth moving in a direction you cannot see but you can definately feel it.

Which is it? How exactly does the Earth hold on to its atmosphere?

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