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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:30 pm 
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What do we really know about everything, when we don´t even know where we are ?...
It´s hard for me to understand, that we agree (can calculate) in an expanding Universe. And some even find an acceleration in the expansion.
-And still we can't extrapolate back in time, to find the point of origin, where it started, The center of the Universe. In these calculations, the position of the Earth must be a parameter that can be isolated...
- But no ! Not even a loose guess on where we are !
- What do we know about this, and are there any serious scientific work being done to solve one of the most basic questions ever...- Where are We ?
Please give me something to work on..
Yours sincerely,
Soren.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:50 pm 
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Does it matter where we are?
We are here and we live our lives.
Why is it necessary to ask questions that may never be answered completely.

Anyway, Welcome and I suppose you can look back over the topics discussed here previously.

Regards, David


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:33 pm 
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Hi David.
Sorry for my question, that may never be answered completely.
I guess you feel the same about -black-holes, -age of Universe and other reactions we can't touch or figure out.
Imagine a scientific population with your curiousity....."Does it matter...", "we are here and we live our lives"
The drive, is these Grand Questions !
Maybe (often) we aim to high, but we find new things, exploring the heavy ones.
You know, what you need to know, good for you. I just need some new angles/input for my research.
If there is a thread about earth-location, please link me..
Yours curiously,
Spoon

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:26 pm 
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spoon wrote:
-And still we can't extrapolate back in time, to find the point of origin, where it started, The center of the Universe. In these calculations, the position of the Earth must be a parameter that can be isolated...
- But no ! Not even a loose guess on where we are !


Soren,

The answer to your question is that the Big Bang occurred "everywhere" within an incredibly small universe and that universe has expanded to become the universe that we live in today (we are inside the "remnant" of the Big Bang). Because the explosion occurred everywhere, the Cosmic Microwave Background radiation that it generated appears to come to us equally from all directions.

If we were able to see to a distance of 13.7 billion light years we would see the Big Bang occurring in whichever direction we looked. However, we don't see actually this because the early universe was opaque.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:17 am 
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Thank you Tony, you are right..!
From T=0 to 200.000 years, weird things happened, like hyper-expansion faster than we can imagine, and the cooling around T=200.000 years, resulting in known "particles" like photons, and therefore "the initiation" of clearness and matter, which expanded in all directions, yet a little lumpy, because of interaction.... Like a giant bowl of corn heated up to popcorn-temp. After they pop, you will see the homogenus spreading... And as You say, if one looks 13,7 bn years back...the result will always be the same, namely the start(BB)...
Very nice, you got me on the move again..
Yours, Soren

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:06 am 
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ATM we all agree to,
-the age of the universe : 13.7 Bn. years.
-starting with BB, as an almost homogenus spheric expansion.
Do we also agree on the shape of the universe as an expanding sphere ?
If yes, -then it must have a center, and a radius of 13.7 Bn. light years, or more. If we still agree, I will make it tricky...
The GRB 090423... It detonated just 630 million years after the big bang. "It's the most distant gamma-ray burst, but it's also the most distant object in the universe overall," says Edo Berger of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics !
Now i ask, at T=630 mill. years, where were Earth ?..not finished yet !
-And certainly on the inside of a pretty small universe !! - How can this flash emitted 13.1 Bn. years ago, suddenly hit Earth today ? It seems like the firework finished before the birth of the Earth, unless the light was twisted and delayed, or we travelled faster than the flash emission.
Please help me out, I can't find these extreme distances in my ever expanding Universe.
Yours ,
spoon

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:03 am 
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spoon wrote:
ATM we all agree to,
-the age of the universe : 13.7 Bn. years.
-starting with BB, as an almost homogenus spheric expansion.
Do we also agree on the shape of the universe as an expanding sphere ?
If yes, -then it must have a center, and a radius of 13.7 Bn. light years, or more.

No, as Tony mentioned, the expansion is taking place everywhere. All galaxies are moving away from all other galaxies (galaxy clusters, in fact), therefore, there can be no centre.

The often used analogy is of dots/galaxies on an expanding balloon but that is limited because it shows only expansion in two dimensions on the surface of the balloon. You have to imagine the balloon and dots expanding IN and OUT of the surface too while ignoring the volume inside the balloon where the air is. Clearly, there is no centre to the surface of the balloon - all dots are moving away from all other dots, no matter where you are standing. In the same way there is no centre to the universe; no matter where you are in the universe, all galaxies appear to be moving away.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 11:28 am 
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Hi joe,
yes, the expansion takes place in 3 dimensions, -like an expanding balloon filled with a mix of everlasting foam and sandgrains, resulting in increased distances between all galaxies (sandgrains), -Or the model using raisin-bread-dough with lots of yeast,- all raisins moving away from each other, while the volume grows..
You say : "All galaxies are moving away from all other galaxies (galaxy clusters, in fact), therefore, there can be no centre. "
I fail to see why the theoretical centre can't exist, along with the "all-over" expansion.!
I know that "no matter where you are in the universe, all galaxies appear to be moving away."...please check link http://www.exploratorium.edu/hubble/tools/center.html .
This only means, that you can't use these data, to find the centre ! (no back-tracking will make sense).
I hope that we still agree on -the shape and -the age of the Universe, and -the fact that the Universe once was a much smaller, but still a, spheric expanding construction.
Please tell me where I am wrong.
Yours, spoon.
[/u]

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:14 pm 
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spoon wrote:
Hi joe,
yes, the expansion takes place in 3 dimensions, like a balloon filled with a mix of everlasting foam and sandgrains, resulting in increased distances between all galaxies (sandgrains).

But the analogy fails as soon as you say "filled with". The balloon is not filled in this analogy. The best way to visualise it is to stick to two dimensions and, therefore, the universe is likened to the SKIN of the balloon only. Where is the "theoretical centre" of the skin of the balloon? There is none.

Many people make the mistake of seeing the expanding balloon as a kind of explosion from a central point. In that analogy galaxies are moving away to the sides and away from the centre of the balloon. The mistake is in excluding the expansion of the skin "up" and "down".


Image

ps. That's a very handy link you provide. Thanks.

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Last edited by joe on Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:22 pm 
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Dear Joe,

What is the supposed current thickness or depth of the skin of the baloon in your analogy?

Is it measurable or can it be calculated?

Regards, David


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 12:28 pm 
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David Frydman wrote:
Dear Joe,

What is the supposed current thickness or depth of the skin of the baloon in your analogy?

It's exactly the same "thickness" as the other two dimensions, David. For example; if you walk in any one direction on the surface of the balloon from galaxy A you will eventually come back to where you started - galaxy A. It's the same with the thickness of the skin of the balloon. Walk inside the thickness of the skin of the balloon and you will eventually come back to where you started - galaxy A.

Edit: In this analogy, the dimensions are arbitrary. People have no problem visualising standing on the surface of the balloon. They can move to the left/right and forwards/backwards. But simply swap one of those dimensions for up/down (you may then see forward/back and up/down but with this change your body will now be lying down, "embedded" in the skin) and then you will easily visualise what is happening in all three dimensions with universal expansion.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 1:27 pm 
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I work from the theory : -Initially a hyper-expansion(inflation), no matter, only hot (energy), expanding in all directions.
-The opaque sphere cools down, and known particles is formed (photons and others), the early universe now becomes "clear" to watch, and time(distances) begins. Some have calculated this event to happen after 200.000 years of opaque hyper-inflation.
-Because of the interactions in this very dense(compact) soup, the newly formed matter/energy, moves in ALL directions. No explosion with a hollow centre, just growth, like the yeast works in a dough.
-Particles cluster up, if they meet, and the formation of the structures we like to watch, has begun. All Distances still growing in All Directions.
Do You believe in the spheric shape of the Universe, with a theoretical border, made up by the front of the "fastest travelling" particles/energy ?
-Or do you follow another theory ?
Yours curiously,
spoon

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 2:33 pm 
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spoon wrote:
Do You believe in the spheric shape of the Universe, with a theoretical border, made up by the front of the "fastest travelling" particles/energy ?
-Or do you follow another theory ?

The theory you follow says nothing about a "theoretical border, made up by the front of the "fastest travelling" particles/energy", therefore, it must be something you've just assumed. Consider the contradiction you've expressed in your last few posts. You said:
Quote:
I know that "no matter where you are in the universe, all galaxies appear to be moving away."...please check link

but then contradict yourself with your view of:
Quote:
a theoretical border, made up by the front of the "fastest travelling" particles/energy ?


A border implies that there is no expansion beyond this "leading edge". That contradicts the idea of expansion in all directions.

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:05 pm 
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Correct me if I'm mistaken, Joe, but isn't the"Big Bang" an umbrella term for a number of catastrophe theories that attempt to explain the origin of the Universe?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 25, 2011 4:29 pm 
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There appear to be a number of competing theories that could come under the BB umbrella, I suppose, Brian. I'm not so sure about whether the BB is attempting to explain the origin of the universe though. I always think of it as a description of what happened in the universe from the very earliest moments to the present day. I think sensible scientists are careful to say that they do not know the physics that exist in a singularity or infinitely small/dense universe.

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