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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 4:42 pm 
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Hi all

Apparently the universe is expanding and accelerating, the more distant galaxies are flying apart faster than nearby galaxies. But what gets me is when observing the light from distant galaxies (say 12 billion ly away) then the light is 12 billion years old, so 12 billion years ago the universe would be expanding as it would only be around 1.7 billion years old, so could the universe be colliding with us right now but the blue shifted light from great distances has not reach us yet, maybe that's why we see nearby galaxies ( ie andromeda ) blue shifted because the light is only a few million years old. so the whole universe could be in a big crunch as we speak and we don't even know it yet.

I may be totally wrong but does it make sense to anyone?

Dale

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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 7:26 pm 
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According to the accepted current theories.......

The universe is expanding and the expansion is currently accelerating due to the effect of "dark energy" and as such the farther away they are the greater the amount of "dark energy" between them and thus the greater the speed of expansion.

The closer galaxies ( e.g. Andromeda ) are moving towards us due to gravitational attraction which is stronger than the effect of "dark energy".

I assume you are suggesting that the expansion has finished and now the universe is contracting together.

Could be !

However if the current theories of "dark energy" are correct then "contraction" cannot occur as the expansion of the universe will begin to follow an exponential rate of acceleration.

I personally don't believe the "dark energy" nonsense.


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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 10:01 pm 
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If we were all honest enough to admit it when we are wrong then there would be no need for dark matter or dark energy or any other kind of darkness. I've heard some claptrap in my time on this planet but the dark syndrome is probably the worst. I have a very simple theory about matter and it goes something like this - if you can't see it, it aint there. The same goes for dark energy - it aint there.
Scientists have a strange habit of inventing missing fields for mathematical models that do not work - and its a load of tosh, probably the worst science I have ever read about since we invented the plough.
It's about time we scrapped the whole BB theory and came up with something more feasable because ladies and gents - its nonsense.#
edit:-
Oh and by the way; we seem to be messing about with particle accelerators crashing particles into one another based on someone's assumption and that they believe their assumption to be correct. That is a big gamble on someone's perception of how it is. We know absolutely nothing of how things are otherwise we wouldn't need to see what happens if we smash this particle into this one would we?
Gamble? i'd say so.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:14 am 
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Quasar wrote:
if you can't see it, it aint there. The same goes for dark energy - it aint there.


I can't see X-rays, quarks, nutrinos, etc. but am confidant they are "there". Of course we can detect them by their effect on other things. Same for Dark Matter. We may not be able to see it but we can detect it (e.g. effects on galactic rotation curves). Naturally, as we don't yet know much about it our descriptions are not as precise as descriptions of things we are more familiar with. But just because we don't know much about it is no reason to deny it exist. It is a reason to investigate further, to understand it better and to modify our theories as we accumulate more facts.

When we discover something new, initially we know very little about it. The scientific process then starts further investigations, collects more data and through that process we learn more. Shortly after a discovery, were we to listen to all the "I can't see it so it does not exist" arguments we would never learn anything new as every new discovery would be rejected as there "is so little evidence".

There is nothing wrong with questioning the theories, seeking alternative explanations, discussing, etc. but on the criteria "being able to see it or it is claptrap", well ...

Ian


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:35 am 
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Deimos wrote:
There is nothing wrong with questioning the theories, seeking alternative explanations, discussing, etc. but on the criteria "being able to see it or it is claptrap", well ...

I agree. I also find it odd that Quasar says:
Quote:
Scientists have a strange habit of inventing missing fields for mathematical models that do not work - and its a load of tosh, probably the worst science I have ever read about since we invented the pl

...while supporting or putting forward "colourful" theories about time, gravity and lightspeed that have no evidence whatsoever.

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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 9:58 am 
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joe wrote:
Deimos wrote:
There is nothing wrong with questioning the theories, seeking alternative explanations, discussing, etc. but on the criteria "being able to see it or it is claptrap", well ...

I agree. I also find it odd that Quasar says:
Quote:
Scientists have a strange habit of inventing missing fields for mathematical models that do not work - and its a load of tosh, probably the worst science I have ever read about since we invented the pl

...while supporting or putting forward "colourful" theories about time, gravity and lightspeed that have no evidence whatsoever.

Not supporting colourful theories at all, just making the point that sometimes it is ok to have different thought trains away from excepted theory, doesn't make me right, just mind exercises.
Again I will make the point that if either dark energy or dark matter exist both of them would be in our own Solar system. What makes people think that such phenomenon would only be limited to Galaxies millions of light years away?
Again I will make the point that if we do not know how the Quantum field operates in our own back garden what makes people sure they can work things out at such distances?
Recently I was talking to an electronic engineer and we were discussing what is actually known about electricityand the electromagnetic field within appliances we have invented i.e computers, satellites, radio equipment etc etc. We know that electricity works but we do not know how it works and everything relating to it in our past has been acheived on the trial and error basis. For example, no one wrote a white paper on electricity before it was discovered and all the great engineers and inventors of the past worked solely on a trial and error basis. The computers we use to write threads on this forum exist because we experimented by placing a capacitor here or and transister there and see what happens next. We don't exactly know the process and direction of Electrons down a copper wire and now some scientists are now suggesting current flows one way and electrons the other!!!
Radio waves, a massive part of our technology; no one has a clue how they work, again all done by trial and error.
My general point is this: We know that things work in the electromagnetic spectrum, we know things work in the Quantum field but we don't know how they work yet we are looking through scopes and trying to guess how thinks work millions of light years away within the same Electromagnetic and Quantum fields. I'd say that was trying to run before you can walk but then again that is my perception of it from my own reality tunnel and is gamble. As long as we all understand that our own perceptions are a gamble then things will be just fine.


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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 10:31 am 
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Quasar wrote:
Again I will make the point that if either dark energy or dark matter exist both of them would be in our own Solar system. What makes people think that such phenomenon would only be limited to Galaxies millions of light years away?

As was mentioned before, the effects of both are more easily detected over large distances and/or volumes. Dark energy is thought to be the responsible for the acceleration of universal expansion. That can hardly be measured within our Solar System when there is no expansion within our Solar System. Expansion is only detectable between galaxy clusters.

Dark matter experiments are being carried out on Earth but, again, the effects of DM are usually only "seen" over large volumes of space and matter - galaxy level. To use an analogy; gravity is undetectable at atomic level but easily apparent at Solar System level.

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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 8:42 pm 
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I'm so glad that you said 'the effects of both', effect being the most important argument.
So here we have the problem, a calculation that seems to be missing a large amount of matter and a large amount of energy from the afore mentioned matter. Two outcomes can come from this argument, either the calculation is wrong or we cannot see the matter involved (dark matter).
Most people assume that dark matter exists because some dude with a degree said so.
My response to that would be that 'his perception of the Universe is a gamble' and if you follow him then you also follow the gamble.
Guessing how the Universe 'is' is a tremendous gamble without either the intelligence or the know how!!!!
I will say this again - people should not assume anything unless they have the evidence to prove what they say.


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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 7:14 am 
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I take it that you now realise why it is difficult or impossible to detect dark matter and dark energy in our Solar System?

Quote:
I will say this again - people should not assume anything unless they have the evidence to prove what they say.

Personally, I am not assuming anything regarding DM and DE. Just because I understand a little of what theorists are saying does not mean I accept it unconditionally. I also believe that they do not either. For these reasons I see it as unreasonable to suggest that scientists are somehow "making it up".

To continue with Wilson's analogy, yes it is a gamble to go along with newly emerging theories but that's life, is it not?

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PostPosted: Mon May 10, 2010 10:32 pm 
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joe wrote:
I take it that you now realise why it is difficult or impossible to detect dark matter and dark energy in our Solar System?

Quote:
I will say this again - people should not assume anything unless they have the evidence to prove what they say.

Personally, I am not assuming anything regarding DM and DE. Just because I understand a little of what theorists are saying does not mean I accept it unconditionally. I also believe that they do not either. For these reasons I see it as unreasonable to suggest that scientists are somehow "making it up".

To continue with Wilson's analogy, yes it is a gamble to go along with newly emerging theories but that's life, is it not?


In life we all have choices. We choose to either accept a theory or reject a theory and you do that through your own perception of each respective theory. The problem with science is we are all taught a set of underlying rules and principles from the very beginning and those rules effect the way in which we perceive everything and govern all our perception. None of us start off with a blank playing field because we all have the theory of relativity entrenched within our minds aswell as other theories. Some people might say that our minds are poisoned with a narrow mindedness instilled in us from our youth.
About a year ago Rudolf came up with an idea that maybe Photons are stationary and it is us that travels past them into the future. Ok, the lad is a little confused about basic principles but his idea was new and unique and as far as I was concerned it gave me a few things to think about. Everyone else rejected the idea because it didn't fit into their own perception of how things should be. If professor Hawking came up with the same idea in six months time, I can guarantee people would be giving it a second thought. Doesn't matter if Rudolf is right or wrong what matters is how open minded people are to be able to absorb something new which goes against the grain. Therefore I would have to conclude that most people's minds are poisoned to the point where they can no longer think for themselves.
As far as I am concerned and the choices I make, I much prefer to sit on the fence about all theories including those made by Einstein. I can speculate and discuss how things are as much as anyone and that is healthy but deep down I honestly think the human race knows zero. I base my judgement of that on the fact we have absolutely no idea how the Quantum field works and that the Quantum field is the most important field in the Universe seeing as everything in it is made from Atoms and sub atomic particles.
I'm not saying that we should not try to work things out and continue to investigate the world around us but my logic is that we should try to understand things closer to home before we go further afield.
A greater understanding of the Quantum field and it's relationship to gravity within our own planet would be a great advancement and a step in the right direction. But as things stand that obstacle has been stepped around so that we can go playing in the Cosmos with things we have no idea about.
Thomas Jefferson once said 'never spend your money before you have it'
Science seems to want to go against his advice and buy an answer before it has been payed with the building blocks.


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PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2010 6:42 am 
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Quasar wrote:
Doesn't matter if Rudolf is right or wrong what matters is how open minded people are to be able to absorb something new which goes against the grain. Therefore I would have to conclude that most people's minds are poisoned to the point where they can no longer think for themselves.

Dark Energy doesn't "go against the grain"?

I think I'm just about done discussing this but it's nonsense to say that people's minds are poisoned. There are more people on this forum who are either sceptical about Dark Matter and Dark Energy or downright hostile to it than there are who actually "accept" it. Generally, people are simply interested - in a non-poisonous way.

DM and DE are certainly challenging hypotheses. You imply that they are simply ideas - without evidence; that they should be rejected and we should concentrate on physics close to home, yet at the same time accuse people of being narrowminded for not accepting challenging theories - like Rudolf's. I have nothing against Rudolf but I object to being labelled narrow-minded simply because I don't accept every half-baked pet theory that pops up in an amateur astronomy forum. If I choose to invest more time on those produced by qualified and experienced physicists, that have been peer reviewed, then I see that as common sense rather than narrow-mindedness. Rodolf's idea might amount to something but for the time being I'll stick with Einstein.

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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 1:07 am 
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joe wrote:
Quasar wrote:
Doesn't matter if Rudolf is right or wrong what matters is how open minded people are to be able to absorb something new which goes against the grain. Therefore I would have to conclude that most people's minds are poisoned to the point where they can no longer think for themselves.

Dark Energy doesn't "go against the grain"?

I think I'm just about done discussing this but it's nonsense to say that people's minds are poisoned. There are more people on this forum who are either sceptical about Dark Matter and Dark Energy or downright hostile to it than there are who actually "accept" it. Generally, people are simply interested - in a non-poisonous way.

DM and DE are certainly challenging hypotheses. You imply that they are simply ideas - without evidence; that they should be rejected and we should concentrate on physics close to home, yet at the same time accuse people of being narrowminded for not accepting challenging theories - like Rudolf's. I have nothing against Rudolf but I object to being labelled narrow-minded simply because I don't accept every half-baked pet theory that pops up in an amateur astronomy forum. If I choose to invest more time on those produced by qualified and experienced physicists, that have been peer reviewed, then I see that as common sense rather than narrow-mindedness. Rodolf's idea might amount to something but for the time being I'll stick with Einstein.


Didn't say you had to accept any theory from anyone, I said that maybe you should open your mind to theories which may have not been made by those peer 'reviewed people' you mention.
Lets talk about 'peer reviewed'. You talk about peer reviewed people as if they were the only people on Earth to be lucky enough to be blessed with enough intelligence to have all the answers when in fact that is far from the case. OK, if you are going to make this your last response then so will I and I'll give it to you straight.
Those 'peer reviewed' people you speak about have set modern thinking back 200 years and probably ruined an entire culture as far as science is concerned. We have developed a culture of 'know it all's' who have absolutely no evidence of what they preach yet when someone else comes up with a theory they have the bare faced cheek to refute that theory because it doesn't fit into their bull **** ideas.
The human race at this point doesn't know jack **** of how everything works and do you know why? Because these days everyone who has half a brain of understanding is whipped away to work for the military and sworn to secrecy, all the best people are working on weapons to destroy one another rather than working for the good of mankind.
There are free energy technologies out there shelved that no one is allowed to work on because the oil companies have bought the patents to them, dozens of them such as the Tesla coil. The whole scientific community is controlled by the military industrial network who provide all the funding so that when knew ideas are brought forward they get them first everytime to choose to either shelve them or use them in the military.
The rest of us pick the bones out of what is left and allowed to mess about with past theories that are completely useless and wrong. The military and the oil companies don't want me and you Joe to be able to understand how things work because that gives their enemies fuel to use against them.
The facts are this: the whole scientific community is paid for by either the government or oil companies, the government has a vested interest because it can use those technologies for weapons, the oil companies use it to suppress technology so we continue to buy their oil. The amount of technology lost between the two of them is invaluable to us all as an evolving people.
Since the last world war you will notice that no major breakthroughs have been made in any of the science's, yeah you've got your microwave oven, you've got you DVD player but you're still running around with your combusion engine car burning oil what they sell you.
There is hell of a lot out there besides things that run on hydrocarbons but you will never see them while ever there is a buck to be made on oil.
THAT IS WHY YOU ARE POISONED JOE. Your own mind only runs as far as what this poisoned planet lets you. You just keep on drinking on the poisoned tit that is in front of you, as for myself, i'll sit on the fence and watch you.


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PostPosted: Fri May 14, 2010 5:52 am 
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Hi,
A few strong words there Quasor.
I rarely post on this section as I don't know enough on the subject to make any constructive comments but I always read every post.
Just compared the very first post on this thread and compared it with the last post from Quasor and the term 'thread drift' comes strongly to mind.
All the best.
Dave

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