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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:46 pm 
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Following the thread last year about spotting scopes at Aldi here...

http://forum.popastro.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17204

...I thought I would post the following to see what the binocular experts on this forum think.

From this Thursday (13th June) to next Wednesday (19th June) Lidl in the UK have a set of Bresser 8 x 60 binoculars on offer for £29.99. I have transcribed the text and then product features from the flyer from the daily paper as follows (I can't find a link to the offer on the Lidl site)...

Binoculars 8x60

. Optimal nature and wildlife observation even in difficult or low lighting conditions

. Light intensive 60mm lenses with variable dioptre setting and flexible eye cups ideal for use with eye wear

. Includes shoulder bag, rain covers for eyepieces, extra carrying strap and cleaning cloth

Product features

. Luminosity: 56.25
. Magnification: 8x
. Field of view at 1000m distance (m): 100
. Close-up (m): from 15
. Lens (mm): 60
. Optical glass material: BK-7, fully coated

What are peoples thoughts on this set? I don't know enough to comment on the tech detail beyond what I read here on the forum, so I know that BK-7 is referring to the internal prisms at least. Thought it would be good to here from experts here so anyone who might like a punt on a set of these would have more information to go on, beyond the usual sensible advice of testing a set in store before you buy.

Does anyone have a set of Bresser binoculars? I personally hadn't heard of them. Also I didn't know you could get 60mm binoculars. I always thought the jump was from 50mm to 70mm!

So, comments? :D

Mark

_________________
Scopes: Celestron C8 Classic (Black-1990), Skywatcher Heritage 130P Flexitube (2014).
EPs: Plossls - 24mm, 16mm ES Maxvision 68°; 18mm, 12mm, 8mm BST Explorer 60°; Kellners - 25mm Celestron; 40mm & 9mm Japanese; MA - 25mm & 10mm Skywatcher; Skywatcher 2x Barlow.
Binos: Helios Apollo 15x70. CZJ Jenoptem 10x50W, Manfrotto 679B Monopod/DynaSun WT011H 3/8 TriggerGrip Ballhead, Vanguard PhotoTripod (T-120223AB). Olympus 8x40 DPS I. Halina Discovery 8x30 [x2].


Last edited by trynda1701 on Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:13 pm 
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. Dear Mark,
about 10 years ago I got a Bresser 15 x 60 possibly from telescope house.

The specification sounded really good but what I got was a rather big lump of binocular.

Firstly, the fully coated or fully multicoated description was actually in the flesh a single coat on the front and a single coat on the rear eyepiece surface. . All other surfaces were completely uncoated.

In addition it was made from grey or dirty glass. I.e. the glass probably had clay impurities in it.

I reckon the total equivalent transmission was perhaps 40%.

The faintest stars visible were 0.1 magnitude fainter than with a standard 12 x 50 medium quality binocular.

It was usable but why bother when a less bulky 12 x 50 did the same job with a wider field of view.

What rather upset me was the untruthful description.

However, Chinese glass has improved and I would hope that the transmission is better.

So how about the 8 x 60?
Firstly, do your eyes open to 7.5 mm?
Secondly, is the aperture really 60 mm? You could easily measure this.
However, measuring the exit pupil you might find that it is less than 7.5 mm even if the clear aperture is actually 60 mm. This would be because of internal restrictions such as the prism being too small. It might even have the old-fashioned squared off exit-pupils.
But this wouldn't really matter as your eyes are unlikely to be 7.5 mm anyway.

At £29.99 I would buy it even though I mention the points above if it was a 15 x 60, 12 x 60 or even 10 x 60. I can only use a 5 mm pupil in light pollution but you might manage 6 mm or more.

So should you buy one?
Why not. Either check it out in the store or buy it check that the collimation is perfect and if it is anyway faulty take it back and get another one.

There are same make 10 x 50 that sometimes go for £7-£15. I don't like them but many amateur astronomers think they are quite good. They are good for the money but it's not something that I would want to use on a regular basis.

There are many 60 mm binoculars.
There are also many fine and not so fine 56 mm roof prism binoculars which can be very good indeed. I like these a lot as a step up from the 10 x 50. I prefer the 12 x 56 but there are also 8×10×13×15 times and 16×56.
There are also 63 mm binoculars.
And 65 mm.
And 58 mm.
. And 52 mm and I think 51 mm also.

So if you have big eyes and dark location then it might be worth having a go at the 8×60.

Enjoy yourself and good skies.

Regards David


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:05 pm 
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@ David

No way do my eyes open to 7.5mm! Having just passed the big 5-0 last year, that's not surprising!

I read elsewhere about someone saying that Lidl had done a 10x50 binocular a few years ago for about 15GBP but they weren't up to much and had to be refunded.

I myself currently use what are labeled as Carl Zeiss Jena Jenoptem 10x50W binoculars. I just read your thread that you posted a couple of years back here...

http://forum.popastro.com/viewtopic.php?t=15130

...about what seems to be the same model, and my experience with them echoes your first post. I can't remember how much I paid for them, bought late '80s(?), but I got them from Argos of all places! They replaced a cheap pair of 16x50 that I got who knows where back in the mists of time. Having a quick look around for reviews, and after finding the above linked thread, I found what look like similar binocs on eBay going from 150GBP upwards, and I know I paid nowhere near that for them!

As for the Bresser 8x60mm at Lidl, the photograph shows a silver looking coating with a hint of sky blue on the front lenses. I haven't been to our local Lidl store to have a look myself though, and the photo might be misleading. I don't know enough about coatings to comment on that. Do you have any thoughts?

Mark

_________________
Scopes: Celestron C8 Classic (Black-1990), Skywatcher Heritage 130P Flexitube (2014).
EPs: Plossls - 24mm, 16mm ES Maxvision 68°; 18mm, 12mm, 8mm BST Explorer 60°; Kellners - 25mm Celestron; 40mm & 9mm Japanese; MA - 25mm & 10mm Skywatcher; Skywatcher 2x Barlow.
Binos: Helios Apollo 15x70. CZJ Jenoptem 10x50W, Manfrotto 679B Monopod/DynaSun WT011H 3/8 TriggerGrip Ballhead, Vanguard PhotoTripod (T-120223AB). Olympus 8x40 DPS I. Halina Discovery 8x30 [x2].


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:11 pm 
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dear Mark,
although some people don't like the Jenoptem because of the poor edge performance which I think is due mainly to a curved field, they are valued because they're well built and fully repairable.

I think the later ones have better multi coating and are more desirable.

People do ask £150 but generally you can get them for £80 or £100 in good condition even from a good repairer salesperson.

They do have a wide field even though from memory the eye relief is small.

you will certainly see more with your current 10 x 50 than if you buy the 8 x 60 although some people of your age still have 7 mm pupils in a dark sky.
Get somebody to measure your pupils in dim light with a ruler and add 10%. That will give you an idea of your pupil size in a moderately dark sky.
Each of your eyes may be different.

The 8 x 60 would make a good doorstop if your eyes are only 6 mm.

Don't scoff at those old 16 x 50 binoculars as some had excellent resolution even though the coatings were poor. The Japanese ones were very good and probably still work when some of the modern Chinese cheapies have long hit the dust.

If you examine the 8 x 60 in bright sunshine it may seem to be excellent.
But your eyes might only be 2.5 mm and you actually looking through an 8 x 20.
Even in cloudy weather it will only be an 8 x 30 in daylight.

It wouldn't surprise me if the magnification is only 7.5 times but if it happened to be nine times it would be more useful.

I would stay with what you have got although somebody very young might find the 8 x 60 useful if the glass is clearer than my 15 x 60 example, which cost around £50.

Regards David


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:42 pm 
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Heads up to anyone going to have a look at these binoculars, they aren't actually available in Lidl until Monday 17th June. I was in looking for something else from the leaflet and they aren't in till Monday either! This isn't clear on the leaflet, but can be seen on the Lidl web site.

Thanks for your comments on these and on my own Jenoptem 10x50W's David.

Mark

_________________
Scopes: Celestron C8 Classic (Black-1990), Skywatcher Heritage 130P Flexitube (2014).
EPs: Plossls - 24mm, 16mm ES Maxvision 68°; 18mm, 12mm, 8mm BST Explorer 60°; Kellners - 25mm Celestron; 40mm & 9mm Japanese; MA - 25mm & 10mm Skywatcher; Skywatcher 2x Barlow.
Binos: Helios Apollo 15x70. CZJ Jenoptem 10x50W, Manfrotto 679B Monopod/DynaSun WT011H 3/8 TriggerGrip Ballhead, Vanguard PhotoTripod (T-120223AB). Olympus 8x40 DPS I. Halina Discovery 8x30 [x2].


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:33 pm 
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Here's some thoughts on the 8x60's at Lidl.

First off, here's a comment made bu user Ken31 on the Stargazers Lounge forum, in the Astro Lounge sub forum, in the thread entitled "Lidl 8x60 Binoculars" by RyanL.

Right then. Based on my two previous reviews, here's the low-down (compared with my 2006 Bresser 10x50s, which for £10 I have been very happy with).

First off, I was quite surprised how big these Bresser 8x60s are. The objectives must have a significantly longer focal length than the 10x50s, and the overall package is about 40% longer. The prism section is (as far as I can tell visually) identical though, with both the objective tubes and eyepiece assembly extended. The finish is a pleasant military green rubberised.

However, I am put off straight away with the flimsiness of the eyepiece bridge. Either eyepiece moves in or out with only minor pressure, affecting the focal distance and the collimation.

No rubbish is visible in the optics this time.
Apart from flimsy bridge, the mechanics seem OK.
The eye cups are of the fold-down type. The full field is not visible at spectacle distance.
The exit pupil is slightly grey at the diagonal edges.
The in-focus exit pupil is 6mm. The diamond pattern is very noticeable with the screen defocussed inside the focal length.
Bearing in mind my visual problems, focus and dioptre adjustments seem OK, closest focus about 30 feet (less with my glasses off!). Noticeable pincushion and defocussing off-axis, fringing acceptable.
ONE SIDE HAS A DIFFERENT COLOUR CAST COMPARED WITH THE OTHER. I don't know how to explain this.

All in all, I am not satisfied to add these to my household. They're going back.


Had a look at a set of these myself yesterday at my local store, it was the last set available. My thoughts are that they seem quite sturdy, I'll be honest I didn't notice if there was any play in the eyepiece bridge. Doing the expected checks, I didn't notice any diamond pattern in the exit pupils, but I thought that the left one looked dispaced in the eyepiece compared to the right hand one. Looking thru them, the image still seemed clear and sharp, but I did think that the field of view seemed narrow compared to my own Jenoptem 10x50W's.

Thought I would post this and that above to let people who may still want to take a punt on a pair before tomorrow (Wednesday, last day of the offer?) to have as much info as possible. The post above can be found at the link below if you want to read the whole thread...

http://stargazerslounge.com/topic/188242-lidl-8x60-binoculars/

Hope the info is of use.

Mark

_________________
Scopes: Celestron C8 Classic (Black-1990), Skywatcher Heritage 130P Flexitube (2014).
EPs: Plossls - 24mm, 16mm ES Maxvision 68°; 18mm, 12mm, 8mm BST Explorer 60°; Kellners - 25mm Celestron; 40mm & 9mm Japanese; MA - 25mm & 10mm Skywatcher; Skywatcher 2x Barlow.
Binos: Helios Apollo 15x70. CZJ Jenoptem 10x50W, Manfrotto 679B Monopod/DynaSun WT011H 3/8 TriggerGrip Ballhead, Vanguard PhotoTripod (T-120223AB). Olympus 8x40 DPS I. Halina Discovery 8x30 [x2].


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:11 am 
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HI All,
I got mine about a week ago.Though Ive not had much chance view the night sky with them yet.
I got the Bresser 10X50's from Lidl a few years back and have been pleased with them.The 8X60's build quality is not so good as their little brother and on mine the plastic covering has lifted away below the focusing wheel exposing strings of brown glue. :( Daylight views aren't so good either with colour fringing towards the edge of the FOV.
Ive never owned such large bins before and I was pleasantly surprised when I used them on the stars,the extra 10mm diameter is really evident and they really brought out the orangeness of Arcturus 8) .The colour fringing I notice in the daylight was not a problem as far as I could see,which makes me think they will be well suited for astronomy.
For the price Id personally recommend them.Good old Lidl two great bins for under £40 you cant argue with it.Money well spent as far as Im concerned. :)
In the image Ive included the 10X50,s for comparison.
Regards Les.


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Bresser 8x60's 27.06.13.jpg
Bresser 8x60's 27.06.13.jpg [ 100.83 KiB | Viewed 11858 times ]
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 6:29 am 
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Location: Between the New Forest and Cranborne Chase
Has anyone measured the effective aperture of these? (easiest way: hold phone-camera flash or other small bright LED about 6 inches form the eyepiece and measure the diameter of the cylinder of light coming from the objective.)

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Steve
The Binocular Sky
Astronomers do it with Heavenly Bodies

Lots of binoculars, from 32mm to 100mm; 90mm Gregory-Maksutov, 406mm Dob


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:49 am 
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. I would also measure the aperture of the 10 x 50 as I suspect that both are undersize by internal vignetting.

Regards David


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Location: Between the New Forest and Cranborne Chase
The Bresser "10x50" that I tested (laser rig -- but the method I suggested above gives less than 1% difference) was a 10x42. Which is slightly better than my Chinese "marine" version of a 10x50, which is only a 10x41. The ubiquitous "15x70"s are 15x62.

Apparently, the exit pupil of the "8x60" has been measured at 6mm which, if accurate, would make it an 8x48.

_________________
Best,
Steve
The Binocular Sky
Astronomers do it with Heavenly Bodies

Lots of binoculars, from 32mm to 100mm; 90mm Gregory-Maksutov, 406mm Dob


Last edited by Tetenterre on Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:13 pm 
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. Dear Steve,
that is about what I would expect.
Do you mean 15 x 62 for the 15 x 70, they are definitely higher magnification than 10 times.

do you have an aperture for the 15 x 70 quantum?

The 10×41 China Marine doesn't sound very good.

The 15 x 60 Bresser was one of the worst binoculars I ever had the misfortune of buying.
I reckon the total effective transmission might have been 40%.
In addition to not having the coatings that were advertised the glass was like a neutral density filter basically being dirty glass.

The only real use for this bulky binocular was as a doorstop.

Mind you I've had my share of non-binoculars.

Regards David


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:03 pm 
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Interesting thread!

I've just applied Steve's measurement technique to my (ex-Lidl, 2005 vintage) Meade-branded 10x50 and to my (astro-Dealer supplied, 1989 vintage) Hunter Astronomical 11x80.

Indeed the Meade 10x50 comes out at 10x41 (maybe 10x42 max), whereas the Hunter 11x80 comes out at 11x78, maybe even 11x79 :D . Certainly I've swept up M33 many times over the years in the 11x80.

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Brian
52.3N 0.6W
Wellingborough UK.

254mm LX90 on Superwedge, WO ZS66SD, Helios 102mm f5 on EQ1, Hunter 11x80, Pentax 10x50
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:34 pm 
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. Dear Brian,
it doesn't surprise me that the Hunter 11 x 80 binoculars are as stated.
It may be a Japanese made binocular? And generally the 1980s and earlier have genuine markings.

Although I'm told I should love Bresser binoculars and their clones I don't, although I think that some of their current more expensive binoculars may be okay.

I suppose if I went to L I DL and Aldi and saw a pile of reasonable 10 x 50 binoculars at £10 I would sort through them and pick the best one.

I know that some people are very happy with these cheap 10 x 50 binoculars and they're not bad but I think that a Pentax or Olympus 10 x 50 at maybe £40 would be a better bet or even a good second hand Nikon or Minolta 10 x 50.

But getting a good bargain seems to be inherent in most of us even though it is not the bargain we thought it was.

Regards David


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:41 am 
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HI David,
Getting a bargain is certainly inherent in me. :lol: However I'm under no illusions,I'm also of the mind that you only get what you pay for.Like most I have neither the know how nor the equipment to bench test these binoculars.If they work for you and your happy with the price then its a bargain.Not many of us are expecting top of the range quality for 30 quid.In any case you can easily take them back for a refund.
I bought these 10X50 'binoculars' a few years ago for £4.99 out of a B&M store,they were really nasty with rifles embossed on them,I cant remember the 'make' but they were so optically awful even I took them back to the shop! :lol:
Regards Les.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:05 pm 
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. Dear Leslie,
the eye cups are probably worth £4.99 for the pair.
and if it had front and back covers perhaps another 4 pounds.
At least that is what you would pay if you had to buy them individually.

At the local low-priced local supermarket they had a £10 binocular almost certainly Chinese.
This was without doubt the worst binocular I've ever seen.
Mechanically it was completely wobbly, nothing fitted properly, the hinge could tilt about 20° up or down.
It was completely impossible to focus.
It was unbelievably bad, in fact I can't believe anyone could make such a bad binocular even if they were trying very hard.
I think Stone Age man could have made a better job of the mechanics.

How on earth the supermarket managed to get these I have no idea.
It was in a glass showcase with Hubble bubble smoking equipment that is sometimes seen being used in Eastern countries.
Perhaps if you had a good smoke this binocular might have seemed not so bad after all.

I didn't buy this binocular and even if it was free it would be overpriced.

Regards David


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